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bhchao -

This might seem like a dumb question. But was Empress Dowager Tzu Hsi really the person that her
image in the West supposedly portrays? Or she is viewed in a equally negative light in China?

Her image has been being a decadent ruler who indulged in luxury, palace pleasures, and sex
intrigues. It's a fact that she blocked the efforts of Kang and his reformers in initiating
reform. But was refusing to initiate change her only crime, and was she really the morally
decadent ruler as portrayed in the history records?

It's probably true that she used funds set aside for modernizing China's navy to build her palace
boat.

Something that needs to be kept in mind is Confucian officials historically regulated the content
of dynastic historical archives, and traditionally have been biased against women in power. Wu
Zetian could be another example. She supposedly murdered her own daughter and blamed it on the
empress. But there is no concrete evidence to back that up.

Another possiblity is that Tzu Hsi's image may have been handed down by late 19th century or
turn-of-the-20th Century historians in Western countries to justify the encroachments made in
China at the time. Court officials sympathetic to the reformers may have also exaggerated her
"minuses".



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skylee -

The romanisation "Tsu Hsi" is confusing.










Kellian -

Huh! I'm glad you brought that up. A book I read called "Dragon Lady" by Sterling Seagrave
definitely made that argument and I've been thinking a lot about it. It said that the Empress
wasn't even able to read (she filled in calligraphy written by others)so she wasn't even capable
of personally causing all the trouble she's blamed for. It really painted her as the fall guy of
the Qing Dynasty, which I thought was kindof sad. Western Scholars would say that it's pretty
typical to portray a woman ruler as depraved for a lot of political and social reasons (check out
Catherine the Great or Mary Queen of Scotts)... and everybody benefitted from blaming Cixi really:
the feuding princes, the officials that pilfered, the foreign powers that were basically invading
the country. It always seemed to me that she couldn't have been as bad as she seemed... and that a
lot of others' historical images benefitted from her being the "bad guy."










bhchao -



Quote:

The romanisation "Tsu Hsi" is confusing

Yes, I agree Thanks for pointing it out. Actually I realized my error and edited my post to change
the title of the thread to Cixi, but was busy that I logged off and forgot to change the rest of
the post to Cixi.

But now you quoted it, I have to leave it in the post.



Quote:

A book I read called "Dragon Lady" by Sterling Seagrave definitely made that argument and I've
been thinking a lot about it. It said that the Empress wasn't even able to read (she filled in
calligraphy written by others)so she wasn't even capable of personally causing all the trouble
she's blamed for. It really painted her as the fall guy of the Qing Dynasty, which I thought was
kindof sad. Western Scholars would say that it's pretty typical to portray a woman ruler as
depraved for a lot of political and social reasons (check out Catherine the Great or Mary Queen of
Scotts)... and everybody benefitted from blaming Cixi really: the feuding princes, the officials
that pilfered, the foreign powers that were basically invading the country. It always seemed to me
that she couldn't have been as bad as she seemed... and that a lot of others' historical images
benefitted from her being the "bad guy

Cixi happened to rule at a time when the Qing Dynasty was already long in decline. The Qianlong
reign was actually when the seeds of decline were planted, and continued to accelerate up to
Cixi's reign. If we were to put someone responsible as being the fall guy of the Qing, why not the
emperor who ruled during the time of the Opium War or Qianlong himself, who failed to see the
dangers ahead?

It seems like she just happened to be a woman in power at the wrong time, and acted no differently
from her predecessors.










hkkevin -

you're actually suggesting a so-called macro history view. No one can really change what's going
to happen, and even if someone makes a really big mistake, it's not the sole reason for the
consequences. So, if you think Cixi was only a woman at the bad time, why do we care about the
criticism on Qianlong or Yongzheng?

I'd say that moral judgement is the worst invention in history education. When historians achieved
a consensus on the list of "bad guys/ good guys", then it'll be deadly difficult for us to analyze
the alternative views. Today, it's really a national sport for Chinese historians to reverse the
comments on some well-known historical figures, like Cixi, Qin Emperor, all these do give us more
insights on what they're doing, but it's really a bad move trying to suggest that these guys are
"good guys". It's just another moral judgements.

For Cixi's life, I think it's more important to see how much she contributed to what happened to
China, whether it's good or bad.










bhchao -



Quote:

but it's really a bad move trying to suggest that these guys are "good guys". It's just another
moral judgements.

For Cixi's life, I think it's more important to see how much she contributed to what happened to
China, whether it's good or bad.

Cixi no doubt aggravated China's situation during the late 19th century. There is no dispute that
she was a bad ruler who inhibited progress during that period.

However objectively speaking, she was not totally against change. She was merely against the speed
of change or "radical" change she saw in Kang Youwei and Liang Qichao's reforms.

A ruler being a woman does not excuse her from being held accountable for wrongdoings. My point
was that some negative aspects of a ruler tend to be exaggerated based on traditional bias towards
a "group" which the ruler belongs in.

For example, the official Confucian view towards Wu Zetian says that she was a ruthless woman who
murdered opponents to maintain her grip on power, killed her own daughter and blamed it on the
empress, and was a sex addict who flirted with male courtiers. There is some truth to that (with
the possible exception of killing her daughter), and that was one of the dark aspects of her
reign. This view though overlooks the positives of her reign. During her reign, she promoted
commoners to high government positions based on their proficiency in the civil service exams,
maintained Tang Taizong's assertive foreign policy, and reduced taxes on the peasantry.

I read a book recently that mentions how the wives of foreign missionaries in China during the
late 19th century personally met the Empress Dowager, and the feedback on her was far different
from the negative qualities reported in the news media overseas. Of course this doesn't mean she
was a "good" ruler, but it does shed some light on how certain aspects of a person can be
exaggerated to suit a certain bias.

Anyways I do think that the internal strife and backwardness in China during the early ROC years
has its roots in Cixi's inaction to implement much needed reforms.










hkkevin -



Quote:

However objectively speaking, she was not totally against change. She was merely against the speed
of change or "radical" change she saw in Kang Youwei and Liang Qichao's reforms.

I always wonder if i were her, what i would do to save the muddled dragon at that time. At that
time, China was really worst at every possible ways. Alongsides all colony powers, there was a
Taiping Rebellion and a growing revolution force. And inside bureaucracy, the conservative
officals was a dead block to radical reforms but they were the only hardcore supporters of the
sick dynasty. And the rise of Han Chinese army would damage must be worrying to Manchuese too.

Then how would you deal with it? To introduce a shock therapy?










bhchao -



Quote:

I always wonder if i were her, what i would do to save the muddled dragon at that time. At that
time, China was really worst at every possible ways.

It was already too late to save the dragon by the time of Cixi's reign. These changes should have
begun during the twilight years of Qianlong's reign. Unfortunately Qianlong had a Sino-centric
attitude in his perceptions of the outside world. He regarded Western science and technology as
inferior inventions created by the "barbarians". This closed-door approach to foreign policy and
global commerce contrasted sharply with Kangxi's approach.

A lesson to be learned from this late-Qing period is that pride can be an inhibition to progress.
Wasn't pride the most deadly of the seven deadly sins according to the Catholic Church? It's an
issue today that's afflicting the current administration in Taiwan with regards to its approach in
cross-Strait communications.

A pragmatic approach during late-Qing probably would be to merge Western science, medicine,
technology, and structural forms of government with traditional Chinese values such as Confucian
ethics.

Some late 20th century historians call Kang Youwei an opportunist whose "radical" reforms were too
sudden of a change for China, a society that was deeply entrenched in neo-Confucianism on the
political level. I think his intentions were good, but it came too late in history to save the
muddled dragon. Also a more realistic approach would be to implement incremental changes gradually
despite the desperate situation, and play the foreign powers off against each other to buy
yourself time.

Both Cixi and Kang Youwei were right, and both were wrong. If I was Cixi, I would have completely
stepped down much earlier on in favor of a "middle of the road", reformist government.

Considering this history (despite my ideological opponent in the CCP), I'm glad that the CCP is
adopting a pragmatic line in making China much stronger than it was during the late 19th century
by not repeating the mistakes of its Qing predecessors.










studentyoung -



Quote:

This might seem like a dumb question. But was Empress Dowager Tzu Hsi really the person that her
image in the West supposedly portrays? Or she is viewed in a equally negative light in China?

Hmm, have you heard of this book named 《宫女谈往录》, written by an unknown but
conscientious intellectual called 金易according to his records of chatting with a Maid of Honor,
who was one of Empress Dowager Tzu His’s close maids?
http://book.sina.com.cn/nzt/his/gongnvtanwang/
《宫女谈往录》(Chinese version)

Thanks!










trevelyan -

Seagrave's book is very well written, although it's interesting because it is more a history of
her time than of the Empress Dowager herself. For what documents are left through which we could
actually know her?

I think the best point Seagrave makes is that Robert Hart, who was probably the only westerner who
would really know, considered her quite nice personally. And she apparently had tea with the wives
of some foreign diplomats at some point, some of whom wrote about it.

I think the really amazing thing about Cixi is how much damage Edmund Backhouse managed to do to
her reputation.












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